As Trump's return seems inevitable, Europe must realise America is no longer a reliable partner. Warm Sino-European relations is key to our future security, economic success & strategic independence
I think you need to give your head a good wobble ! EU - or - USA !
EVERYTHING the Chinese do - is to advance Chinese interests - - End of .
The very VERY much larger issue here is - do you wish to be subservient to an Autocratic state completely controlled in EVERY respect by the CCP
OR do you wish to support the ultimate ( but clearly flawed ) democratic state - USA .
Trade - ebbs and flows and is not the decider of where ultimate allegiance needs to lie .
The Eu which started well ,, but is now DEEPLY undemocratic due to its ultimate control by the “ Commisioners “ none of whom are Elected ,,, has Only been possible as an Artificial Construct because of the intervention WW2 of the True Democratic states U.K. - USA .
China will bring no more than a “ Gilded Yoke “
The democratic system has lifted more people out of subsistence living and poverty than anything that ever came before .
Having spent a fair bit of time “ State Side “ - - I consider it a much better spec to throw my lot in with the major democratic state as opposed to the Autocratic Chinese Communist Party .
Ps - I am chust a working chap so what do I know 😂😂
"Ps - I am chust a working chap so what do I know 😂😂"
Honest people can disagree and remain friends. 😁
But on your broader point, I mean I do get your point about China not being a liberal democratic system domestically, but I suppose I'd respond to that in two ways
1. There is more than one way to run a country and the political system for China is broadly speaking a matter for Chinese people. You cannot enforce an alternative political model on another country. Which leads me to
2. My larger fear (having grown up the 9/11 generation) is my very real fear of governments and countries which do enjoy enforcing their political systems via wars of aggression (the US does this, not China. China hasn't waged a war since 1980...they only have 1 serving general who actually had a command during a conflict)
Trade does ebb and flow, but in a multipolar world, Europe must place European interests first. Our interests are getting China onboard to deal with Russian aggression problems, improve trade and economic growth at home (to head off rise of populist far right and left). America is the obstacle to us achieving this, and China is the key. A country which - I repeat - has zero interest in foreign wars of aggression, foreign adventurism abroad.
China - is ,, a new rising power , a Country that was ,,, in the past humiliated and treated VERY Badly by other Nations that held power and sway , both diplomatically and Militarily.
One of the unknowns is how they will relate to the world now that they are starting to aquire military / financial power .
Currently they are using their huge pool of low cost labour and massive manufacturing base to make their presence felt Globally .
Taiwan
Philippines
South China Sea
These are the first obvious areas where they are clearly prepared to show power through aggression .
Their pool of cheap labour - given completely free access kills business that runs on European wages and conditions .
I have personal knowledge of a marine project where - we ( long established and top reputation in a particular market ) - could not even buy all the materials for the project - at the price the Chinese would build and deliver ( fully certified ) to the U.K.
is it any wonder that perspicacious people are very afraid of the CCP and their use of The Chinese people .
The issue of S. China seas is a fascinating issue and I'm glad you raised it.
Now obviously I live between UK and China and have done since 2014. So, I tend to listen to Asian media (Singapore etc, not just China) and I've noticed something.
Western media only ever say the militarisation of the S. China seas is a consequence of Xi Jinping "breaking his promise" to Obama. But this actually leaves out a critical piece of detail.
According to America's own ambassador J. Stapleton Roy that Xi actually offered Obama demilitarisation of S.China seas IF US ALSO PLEDGED TO DEMILITARISE. Obama said no. That's critically important contextual detail for understanding subsequent Chinese actions, no?
Imagine it, you're China and some of your most populous cities constantly face US 'freedom of navigation' fleets prowling mere miles off your coastline. And when you offer joint demilitarisation the US say no, only China is to demilitarise!
Come off it! China is not the aggressor here! See this video by Singaporean ambassador (retired) and lead academic Kishore Mahbubani video where he speaks about the South China Sea and discussed whether the sea will become a zone of peace or a zone of war. Please watch it, it's a short but great video that breaks the issue in this specific down from a non-western perspective:
In my view - on this occasion you are VERY wide of the mark . China should NEVER be a TRUSTED partner
China is a Hostile power ,that trades to ITS advantage and is currently at war with us using the well established Chinese strategy of long thinking principles ( Read Sun Tzu - the Art of War ) China is run by clever people ( unlike Russia that is run by greedy Brutish Gangster types like Putin )
Currently China is engaged in stripping Manufacturing out of our Western Societies using its vast pool of cheap labour as only one arm of its long term subjugation plan .
This along with spying , intellectual and patent theft , it’s Confucius institute with its pernicious influence in educational establishments , it’s road and belt schemes Ensnaring , influence using unpayable debt .
Only a VERY narrow short term view could see any advantage of having bilateral trusting relations with China .
China operates on a 'win win' approach to trade relations, not seeking to export its political system (unlike the USA and its myriad regime change wars of aggression over my lifetime). China is run by clever people, who realise that having the EU at the very least non-aligned in this new cold-war between the superpowers (China & USA) is essential for Chinese survival.
In this context, the notion that Beijing aspires to brutalise and to quote your language 'subjugate' Europe is laughable. China wants what every great power wants (and what America insists on keeping for themselves), namely the ability to project a dominant power over its region of the world. What's good for the goose is equally good for the gander.
As for industrial spying etc, this is so overblown in historical terms. When the UK was being superseded by the USA through the 19th century till the turn of the 20th Century, the intellectual property theft was on an equally industrial scale. This is simply an unavoidable reality as one great power fades (USA) and another rises (or in China's case, returns).
Is China an existential threat to the USA and its globally dominant system? Yes.
Should Europe give a damn about that? Nope. Europe needs to cooperate in a win-win scenario with China to solve our trade issues, tackle global warming and ensure stability on the Eurasian continent.
America wants to go full Trump, then I say let them. But they are simply not reliable partners for Europe any longer. China however could still be.
It ,,, is Quite Quite Obvious that You - have been “ Turned “ by Chinese influence .
China is NOT a force for the good of ordinary peoples lives .
China should be resisted with EVERY fibre of our being - Not kowtowed to , NOT traded with . They should in fact be isolated at every possible turn ,, and weakened in Every possible way .
I've been 'turned' have I? How does advocating an independent EU position on the international relations sphere represent "Chinese influence"? And how does working with China to remedy our trade issues (to make Europe's wealthier) represent selling out my own continent? My position was the consensus position until Obama's administration in 2013 decided China was suddenly too big a threat for US global dominance to tolerate. Guess the academic international relations consensus was filled with people "turned" by Chinese "influence" from 1980-2013!
Why are you so afraid of China? From my experience in this life, it's the USA which has engaged in regime change wars to enforce its own socio-political worldview on others, whereas China has been a strong (if not leading) advocate for territorial integrity being respected, non-interventionism and global trade interdependence.
p.s. China has lifted 800m people out of absolute poverty in the last 40 years, so whole generations of Chinese citizens would disagree with your assertion that "China is NOT a force for the good of ordinary peoples lives"
I think you need to give your head a good wobble ! EU - or - USA !
EVERYTHING the Chinese do - is to advance Chinese interests - - End of .
The very VERY much larger issue here is - do you wish to be subservient to an Autocratic state completely controlled in EVERY respect by the CCP
OR do you wish to support the ultimate ( but clearly flawed ) democratic state - USA .
Trade - ebbs and flows and is not the decider of where ultimate allegiance needs to lie .
The Eu which started well ,, but is now DEEPLY undemocratic due to its ultimate control by the “ Commisioners “ none of whom are Elected ,,, has Only been possible as an Artificial Construct because of the intervention WW2 of the True Democratic states U.K. - USA .
China will bring no more than a “ Gilded Yoke “
The democratic system has lifted more people out of subsistence living and poverty than anything that ever came before .
Having spent a fair bit of time “ State Side “ - - I consider it a much better spec to throw my lot in with the major democratic state as opposed to the Autocratic Chinese Communist Party .
Ps - I am chust a working chap so what do I know 😂😂
"Ps - I am chust a working chap so what do I know 😂😂"
Honest people can disagree and remain friends. 😁
But on your broader point, I mean I do get your point about China not being a liberal democratic system domestically, but I suppose I'd respond to that in two ways
1. There is more than one way to run a country and the political system for China is broadly speaking a matter for Chinese people. You cannot enforce an alternative political model on another country. Which leads me to
2. My larger fear (having grown up the 9/11 generation) is my very real fear of governments and countries which do enjoy enforcing their political systems via wars of aggression (the US does this, not China. China hasn't waged a war since 1980...they only have 1 serving general who actually had a command during a conflict)
Trade does ebb and flow, but in a multipolar world, Europe must place European interests first. Our interests are getting China onboard to deal with Russian aggression problems, improve trade and economic growth at home (to head off rise of populist far right and left). America is the obstacle to us achieving this, and China is the key. A country which - I repeat - has zero interest in foreign wars of aggression, foreign adventurism abroad.
China - is ,, a new rising power , a Country that was ,,, in the past humiliated and treated VERY Badly by other Nations that held power and sway , both diplomatically and Militarily.
One of the unknowns is how they will relate to the world now that they are starting to aquire military / financial power .
Currently they are using their huge pool of low cost labour and massive manufacturing base to make their presence felt Globally .
Taiwan
Philippines
South China Sea
These are the first obvious areas where they are clearly prepared to show power through aggression .
Their pool of cheap labour - given completely free access kills business that runs on European wages and conditions .
I have personal knowledge of a marine project where - we ( long established and top reputation in a particular market ) - could not even buy all the materials for the project - at the price the Chinese would build and deliver ( fully certified ) to the U.K.
is it any wonder that perspicacious people are very afraid of the CCP and their use of The Chinese people .
The issue of S. China seas is a fascinating issue and I'm glad you raised it.
Now obviously I live between UK and China and have done since 2014. So, I tend to listen to Asian media (Singapore etc, not just China) and I've noticed something.
Western media only ever say the militarisation of the S. China seas is a consequence of Xi Jinping "breaking his promise" to Obama. But this actually leaves out a critical piece of detail.
According to America's own ambassador J. Stapleton Roy that Xi actually offered Obama demilitarisation of S.China seas IF US ALSO PLEDGED TO DEMILITARISE. Obama said no. That's critically important contextual detail for understanding subsequent Chinese actions, no?
Imagine it, you're China and some of your most populous cities constantly face US 'freedom of navigation' fleets prowling mere miles off your coastline. And when you offer joint demilitarisation the US say no, only China is to demilitarise!
Come off it! China is not the aggressor here! See this video by Singaporean ambassador (retired) and lead academic Kishore Mahbubani video where he speaks about the South China Sea and discussed whether the sea will become a zone of peace or a zone of war. Please watch it, it's a short but great video that breaks the issue in this specific down from a non-western perspective:
https://youtu.be/kg8TmKuaYAQ?list=PL89xIPsq1d1TnQzsb3Fl3Gi0WniToDIg4
In my view - on this occasion you are VERY wide of the mark . China should NEVER be a TRUSTED partner
China is a Hostile power ,that trades to ITS advantage and is currently at war with us using the well established Chinese strategy of long thinking principles ( Read Sun Tzu - the Art of War ) China is run by clever people ( unlike Russia that is run by greedy Brutish Gangster types like Putin )
Currently China is engaged in stripping Manufacturing out of our Western Societies using its vast pool of cheap labour as only one arm of its long term subjugation plan .
This along with spying , intellectual and patent theft , it’s Confucius institute with its pernicious influence in educational establishments , it’s road and belt schemes Ensnaring , influence using unpayable debt .
Only a VERY narrow short term view could see any advantage of having bilateral trusting relations with China .
China operates on a 'win win' approach to trade relations, not seeking to export its political system (unlike the USA and its myriad regime change wars of aggression over my lifetime). China is run by clever people, who realise that having the EU at the very least non-aligned in this new cold-war between the superpowers (China & USA) is essential for Chinese survival.
In this context, the notion that Beijing aspires to brutalise and to quote your language 'subjugate' Europe is laughable. China wants what every great power wants (and what America insists on keeping for themselves), namely the ability to project a dominant power over its region of the world. What's good for the goose is equally good for the gander.
As for industrial spying etc, this is so overblown in historical terms. When the UK was being superseded by the USA through the 19th century till the turn of the 20th Century, the intellectual property theft was on an equally industrial scale. This is simply an unavoidable reality as one great power fades (USA) and another rises (or in China's case, returns).
Is China an existential threat to the USA and its globally dominant system? Yes.
Should Europe give a damn about that? Nope. Europe needs to cooperate in a win-win scenario with China to solve our trade issues, tackle global warming and ensure stability on the Eurasian continent.
America wants to go full Trump, then I say let them. But they are simply not reliable partners for Europe any longer. China however could still be.
It ,,, is Quite Quite Obvious that You - have been “ Turned “ by Chinese influence .
China is NOT a force for the good of ordinary peoples lives .
China should be resisted with EVERY fibre of our being - Not kowtowed to , NOT traded with . They should in fact be isolated at every possible turn ,, and weakened in Every possible way .
I've been 'turned' have I? How does advocating an independent EU position on the international relations sphere represent "Chinese influence"? And how does working with China to remedy our trade issues (to make Europe's wealthier) represent selling out my own continent? My position was the consensus position until Obama's administration in 2013 decided China was suddenly too big a threat for US global dominance to tolerate. Guess the academic international relations consensus was filled with people "turned" by Chinese "influence" from 1980-2013!
Why are you so afraid of China? From my experience in this life, it's the USA which has engaged in regime change wars to enforce its own socio-political worldview on others, whereas China has been a strong (if not leading) advocate for territorial integrity being respected, non-interventionism and global trade interdependence.
p.s. China has lifted 800m people out of absolute poverty in the last 40 years, so whole generations of Chinese citizens would disagree with your assertion that "China is NOT a force for the good of ordinary peoples lives"